Re: Striving to be Better

I must say I did not expect my previous blog to get the response it got. I was a little apprehensive about writing my thoughts on that particular “subject’ (and they were my personal thoughts, for future reference) because I feared people would misinterpret what I said, be told I took things too seriously, and/or be told that “Websites are for fun, you can’t tell people what to do!”

Needless to say, I was told all those things and more.

This blog was going to be another Interesting Links post, but I thought—Oh what the hell, let’s clear the air. I’ll be responding to most of the comments I got on my last entry, because I got some interesting ideas and comments and it only makes sense to respond to them here, where it’s appropriate.

[...] I know I’m always trying to brush up my skills too. x_x (Even though they’re mostly in the coding arena so it’s background work no one can see and appreciate. :( ) - Rilla

Even if no one can see it, you’re still trying, and that’s all that matters. You’re making a conscious decision to make sure your website stands at its best, which was my entire point.

[...] I guess, it all depends on what you need your website for. Some just want o showcase their offline work/life… others (like you) consider the website so much more. - Vera

I wasn’t really gearing my blog towards people that blog. I don’t look at writers as webdesigners. It’s not the same as if someone were to say “I love webdesign!” but they never work to get better at it.

I don’t think actually “being better” at web design/coding is the important part, but rather the trying. You can copy and paste valid syntax, you can pretend you have an ounce of talent in photoshop all you like - these things take seconds to demonstrate. It’s the actual getting up, having a go, changing your code, trying out new stuff - all of that matters, whether or not the person “fails” in the end. - Jem

You expressed it a lot better than I did. I agree, it’s all in the trying. However, people that try get better over time. I believe coding and design is all trial and error, and you learn from those. After 2+ years of owning a website and trying, I expect improvement. Of myself, mostly.

Sometimes though, it’s a bit hard to let go on your old habits and try something new, like in my case, it takes me ages to decide to try a new navigation style. Sometimes the changes are really about your mark up and coding skills, and like Rilla said, it goes almost unnoticed. All in all, we have to strive to be better, and that implies every aspect of our website and life. - Regina

I agree. I always find myself getting stuck with a particular style I like, so sometimes I have to force myself out of it and try something new. Nine times out of ten I like it better. And yes, we do have to strive to be better online and off—otherwise, what’s the point?

I agree - I just don’t see the point to it. If I was the same as I was four years ago I’d still be using Microsoft Frontpage and Tahoma size 8pt. Change… change is good. - Matt

Oh I agree. I think about the layouts that were all the rage in 2003 and I cringe.

I disagree.  I don’t believe you need to “improve” your skills to enjoy designing.  Some people believe they have reached their peek in design and don’t want to bother furthering their knowledge in HTML and CSS.  Of course, I have learned my fair share over time, but some people don’t feel the need to, nor do they have the time (in some situations). It all falls back on doing what you enjoy. - Brandi

I never said you needed to improve your skills to enjoy designing. I said people who claim to love webdesign and don’t feel the need to improve is ridiculous. If you’re an artist, you won’t be using the same tools you used last year. There are constantly new tools, techniques, and styles coming out. I don’t understand why people who claim to love webdesign would just let themselves stop learning. “Don’t bother furthering their knowledge”—Are you a real webdesigner then? If you don’t want to learn any more? I haven’t really thought about it, but it doesn’t sound good any way I put it. Again, being a writer doesn’t make you a designer.

I think I always try to improve, but the effort and even success aren’t always obvious. But as long as I know that I’m doing my best, then I’m satisfied :) I’d like to see some of your old designs or content! - Kaylee

I might do this in another blog post. Give you guys some lulzy past designs/layouts.

What I hate is people too stubborn to grow and realize that what they are doing is kind of obsolete for a reason.  Example:  Tiny text layouts.  It is especially annoying when people are all stuck-up over their outdated sites. - J

Those were the people I was thinking of when I wrote the post, actually. People who scream they love webdesign and call themselves webdesigners and are still stuck in 2001.

Ummm… can we say, “hobby.” For some people, like me, that is all web design is: it’s a hobby.  I do it for fun, and I would rather not have other web designers breathing down my necks because my website isn’t 2.0 or some crap like that.  It’s just something I do for fun.- Kimmie

Lol. Ummmmm… can we say “defensive much”? Webdesign is a hobby, of course. We don’t get paid to do this. I wonder: what web designers have been breathing down your neck lately? You seem a little bitter. “Because my website isn’t 2.0 or some crap like that”—... Do you feel 2.0 is crap? I happen to like the 2.0 look. It’s sophisticated, accessible, and it’s a step up from the usual.

I also have a life beyond the web: jewelry, scrapbooking, reading, dungeons and dragons, warhammer 40k, video games, school, work, etc.  So if I don’t spend all of my free time on my website, you’ll have to forgive me, nor do I want your pity.  Quite frankly, I don’t care about how a site looks as long as it is readable, navigable, and has quality content that I enjoy reading. But since you want your website to stand as it’s best: here’s a fantastic web design tip.  Make your comment text box the same width as the actual posted comment.  This way people don’t need to use the preview button, not that it works anyway. - Kimmie

Expression Engine does the Preview thing. I just insert the code. I’m sorry if it doesn’t work, I’ll try to fix that.

What really got me about this comment is how personal it seems. Hey Kimmie, for your information, this blog wasn’t geared towards you. It wasn’t a personal attack, and as such you shouldn’t feel so defensive or agressive towards what I wrote. I’m not claiming to be better than anyone - I was expressing my opinion. If you don’t agree with it, respectfully express your thoughts or shut the fuck up.

P.S. Check out Neonglow MB! It’s sexy.


Whenever I’ve read Kimmie’s comments on other sites (and mine), she’s always got a huge fucking branch (not a twig!) up her ass. I usually just skip over what she has to say, because it’s not usually worth thinking about. :P

I think what the problem is for the people you’re exposed to the most, is because they really don’t know that there is more to design than what they’ve already been exposed to and that noone has really complained/given enough feedback for them to warrant researching and trying to learn more.

I think it’s just a security blanket. They’re so used to it, that the idea of changing, maybe it just scares them.

Posted by Jordan on February 14, 2008

As a matter of fact I do see Kimmie’s point. And I feel you the rest of the world are being needlessly offended.

As a computer programmer, even though you work in the field of web application development, you can’t really afford to concentrate much on the interface (i.e. layout). So you just go with whatever works and is fastest to implement.

These people may take web design as a hobby, and just like Brandi said, don’t feel they need to think of getting better. They also proclaim to like web design, yet don’t make an effort toward refining their standards… because quite frankly they have other priorities.

Still you as a perfectionist, come along and start dissing them for not trying and such. It’s like going to a stamp collector and saying “hey, you’re a lousy stamp collector because you don’t catalog your stamps according to the latest standards”. Yeah, sure the standards make sense, but it’s a hobby.

Um… you know… you did actually give me a blog idea. Shame on you, I should be doing something completely different.

Despite my disagreement here, I really liked this blog post.

Posted by Vera on February 14, 2008

Well, I see not wanting to improve as a sign of mediocrity. (I had to look up that word online cause I couldn’t spell it :(). If you got to a point you can’t just “dormirte en los laureles”...or let’s translate: sit down and just enjoy your laurel crown, cause somebody else is always going to be a step ahead of you. If you’re fine with it, that’s ok, but not aiming to be a little bit better everyday shows laziness. My opinion....

Posted by Regine on February 14, 2008

Vera: I’m not calling anyone out, though. It’s a very general opinion. I personally don’t understand how someone can have a hobby and not try to get better at it. I don’t expect others to agree 100% with me. :)

Posted by on February 14, 2008

Easy, the person practices the hobby because it helps him/her unwind.

As much fun as we have trying to rise up to the challenge of making things cross-browser compatible(for example), others might find it tiresome, annoying, frustrating.

To me, hobby does not mean, some activity I like which I’m not payed for. Hobby means a pleasurable activity which helps me unwind.

For example: I like taking pictures. They are a sort of gateway to accessing pleasant memories. When I went to Israel I took a lot of pictures of buildings (historical sites), random houses, landscapes, flowers etc. I like them, so I wanted to immortalize them. Plus it was fun, trying to shoot the pictures from different angles. I had fun doing this.

Whenever I’m with my dad though, I can’t enjoy this. He keeps pestering me to turn this way and dad way… and why aren’t I clicking away… and why am I not…
Yeah, I want to make nice pictures, but it’s a bloody hobby. Stop trying to grade me, let me enjoy myself.

That’s the sort of attitude I see in Kimmie, regarding webdesign.

Posted by Vera on February 14, 2008

You know what? I don’t understand why people don’t want to improve! Really now, what’s the point of doing something if you do not wish to improve? That is a disgustingly lazy way of thinking and I’m afraid I cannot see your point.

I strive to be better, I like the challenge and it makes me feel better knowing that, hey, I’m working towards something.

Posted by Becky on February 14, 2008

Becky: Because, some people don’t see a challenge in everything. Some of the things they take part in are just a means to an end (i.e. a website is an online container for their data - writings, pictures, sounds).

Posted by Vera on February 15, 2008

I’m not really on either side here. Sarai, I see what point you are trying to make, but I also understand what Vera is saying too. I love my site. I don’t think it’s bad, but it could definitely improve. However, I don’t have as much time as I used to have to spend on my site. To be honest, I am not that much into the coding aspect. I really just enjoy blogging and actually making the layouts in Photoshop.

Posted by Britney on February 15, 2008

ZOHMYGOSH SARAI YOUR PREVIEW BUTTON JUST ATE MY COMMENT. T_T *sulks and types again*

I can sort of understand both sides. I play the piano but I don’t like it so much as to go around and scream “I love the piano!” Therefore even though I would like to improve in it, I actually don’t. But then when it comes to web design/coding/art etc. kind of hobbies, I do feel I’m improving despite my half-assed attempts to. :P

But just reading Britney’s comment above, I don’t understand how people can enjoy blogging and making layouts in Photoshop more than the coding aspect. <_< That’s probably why I’m improving my coding knowledge faster than Photoshop.

Your original post was more geared towards those who claim they love design (even worse those who run a web designs site) and yet don’t try to improve, right? In that case Kimmie’s argument on the whole only “do[ing] it for fun” thing wouldn’t apply.

Posted by Rilla on February 15, 2008

Your original post was more geared towards those who claim they love design (even worse those who run a web designs site) and yet don’t try to improve, right? In that case Kimmie’s argument on the whole only “do[ing] it for fun” thing wouldn’t apply.

Exactly. But people can’t help but make it a personal thing, I guess.

Posted by Sarai on February 15, 2008

I didn’t actually mean to sound like an ass in my comment.  The point I was trying to make is that it’s a hobby, and you shouldn’t get so judgmental toward other people for it not being as important to them as it is to you, even those who claim that they love it. 

Sounds like both of us need to work on expressing ourselves better.

Posted by Kimmie on February 15, 2008

I didn’t comment on the previous entry, so I’ll do it in this one.

As controversial as the subject seems to be and so many people disagreeing, I have to agree with you completely.

It’s sad to see so many people settle with mediocrity. Forgetting for a second that we are talking about websites, this abandonment I’m talking about predominates in many aspects of people’s lives. I know people’s lives are no one’s but their own -just like their websites. However, it makes me angry that people complain and complain about the difficulties they are having with whatever they are having difficulties, but they do absolutely nothing about it. I hate the “that’s wrong, this is wrong, it is all wrong but I can’t do anything so I’ll just sit here and do complain about it” attitude.

Back to websites, I think the problem is even worse than the general situation I mentioned before. Most of the time people can’t even see what is wrong with them because they have very low standards. For example, if I admire a website, it’ll be like a role model for what I want my website to become. Having a crappy role model is the first wrong step. It is highly remediable though, and all of us go through it. The problem is with those who refuse to look further for new “role models” and want to stay stuck in their original suckiness. So when someone comes along and gives them a bad review, they resort to the “I can’t do anything” attitude or worse, to the “You’re just jealous” shit.

I’ll just leave it there :P

Posted by Lene on February 15, 2008

I don’t understand how Vera can say she disagrees with you, but then go on to criticise other people’s websites. If Vera doesn’t expect them to improve from her advice, what’s the point? :S

Some people are just lazy. If they don’t want to improve that’s their choice, but when they can’t figure out why anyone bothers to read or visit their website they can expect me to come a’LOLing.

Posted by Jem on February 16, 2008

I do expect them to improve, but I’m also realistic and see that not everyone sees things from my point of view, and people have different priorities.

Unless, I’m writing a review, I rarely comment on how standard’s compliant a site is… provided I can read its content without trouble.

Posted by Vera on February 16, 2008

Sarai I do agree with you completely. I started it as a hobby and it still is, but I love improving. I went from using and customizing free templates about two weeks ago to creating my very own layout for the first time while working my ass off to make it work (it’s up now). I don’t see the point in doing anything if you aren’t going to try to improve your current skill set. When you can do more in said area it’ll be more fun to experiment and try new things!

Posted by Sean on February 16, 2008

But Vera, if you do expect them to improve how can you say you disagree? And, I’m sure Sarai knows that people have different priorities. That doesn’t make them any less idiotic if they claim they lurve web design but don’t even try and improve on it.

Not really sure where the standards thing comes into it, but w/e..

Posted by Jem on February 16, 2008

I was referring to the web 2.0 guidelines here, which Kimmie mentioned.

Like Brandi said, some people feel there after a given point, there’s no need to “keep trying so hard”, so they focus more on the content… or the pretty colors (since it’s web design we’re talking about).

Posted by Vera on February 17, 2008

..but the point is, they’re not focusing on the content or the pretty colours. Sarai was talking about those NOT focusing on anything like that.

Posted by Jem on February 17, 2008
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